The daring trio continue our discussion about critique as an important tool in a writer’s toolbox! Once you’ve gone as far as you can with a manuscript, what do you do next?In this episode we discuss the next step in the process, when you’ve moved past alpha readers and early critique groups and are ready for beta readers and professional editors. 

If you are wondering how to find and vet beta readers, how to set expectations, and what to do with the feedback you get, then this is the episode for you! This carries on from part 2 in episode 12, which recommend listening to as well. 

Ep.13: The Three Cs: Critique, Compassion, and Craft! (Part 2) – TRANSCRIPT

Dave Hogan, Gina’s Pop
0:02
Welcome to Around the Writer’s Table, a podcast focusing on the crossroads of creativity, craft, and conscious living for writers of all ages and backgrounds. Your hosts are Gina, Melody, and KimBoo, three close friends and women of a certain age, who bring to the table their eclectic backgrounds and unique perspectives on the trials, tribulations, and the joys of writing. So pull up a chair and get comfortable here around the writer’s table.

KimBoo York
0:43
Welcome back. Thank you so much for joining us around the writer’s table. This is KimBoo York, and this is episode 13 of the exciting conclusion to our critiquing series, although we will definitely be talking about critiquing, again, at some point because it is an important part of the writers’ process, self-critiquing and working with other people as they critique your writing. If you’re wondering what I’m talking about, go back and listen to episode 12 where we talk about critiquing in the earlier stages of writing, where you might work with alpha readers, or you might have a critique group. And if you don’t know what I’m talking about, then that is absolutely the episode you need to go listen to. You can listen to it after this one if you want. You don’t have to stop. But I highly recommend that one. I’m here today with my friends and co-hosts, and I’m going to introduce them to you before we get started rolling, because they’re… all of us have exciting things going on. So I’m here with Melody, A Scout. 

Melody, A Scout
Good morning.

KimBoo
And she helps her clients find their sense of home by restoring balance and harmony to their lives through plant spirit medicine and her book Soul of the Seasons. She has been a great teacher for me on warning about all of those things and applying it to my life. So highly recommend it. I’m also here with Gina Edwards. 

Gina Hogan Edwards
Hello, everybody. 

KimBoo
Who is passionate about supporting women and finding their voices on the page. And from the stage. Again, another one of my personal teachers as well as a friend. She’s taught me a lot, especially with her experience as a professional editor. 

I, of course, am KimBoo York. I am a romance novelist and former project manager who helps writers and solopreneurs find time, mojo, and motivation to create through my experience with productivity tips and advice. And also sometimes writing advice. I’ve written a little bit. 

So we’re going to move on into critique, part two. So as I said a little bit earlier, at the introduction, this is part two, and what we discussed in our previous episode was the early stages of critique, doesn’t always mean criticism. We talked about that in the last episode, where you might have alpha readers, you might find critique groups, the importance of self assessment. We talk a lot about that in the last episode, and that’s an important part to bring with you into this episode. It’s knowing what you need out of critique, as well as what you can offer if you’re in a critique group and you’re working with other writers. So the old saying, “Know thyself” is an important part of the whole critique process, especially though in the early stages. 

As you get into the later stages, as we’re talking about today, still very important, but we do talk about that in more detail and how to make that assessment. Gina had a worksheet with that episode [below the show notes], so definitely go back and check that out, because download that worksheet. Go through it. Gina really knows how to make things clearer when you’re having those difficult questions of yourself. So highly recommend that one. 

I am going to go ahead and turn it over to Gina right now, which she’s going to talk to us a little bit about that tricky thorny question: critique from others versus editing. And also some other experiences that may not be so great sometimes. So, Gina.¶ 

Gina Hogan Edwards
4:03  ¶

So getting critique from others, being involved in critique group or feedback group… My experience, as I mentioned in the last episode, is sort of a love-hate relationship with that. And I find that critique groups are most helpful to me when I am at a later stage. I’m not saying that it’s ready for publication. But when I know that I have worked on something, I’ve done my own assessment of that piece as much as I possibly can within the limits of my capabilities, and then I’m ready to hand it off to someone else to give me some feedback on that. And that differs very much from the editing process. When you’re involved in a critique group or using beta readers, those are typically non-professionals. They may be other writer friends. but they’re not necessarily an editing professional. 

When you have the manuscript to the point where you feel like you’ve done everything that you possibly can with it, you’ve gotten feedback from whoever you want to get the feedback from, and you’re ready to hand it off to a professional editor, knowing your strengths and weaknesses, which, again, is something we talked about in the last episode, is really important here. 

Oftentimes, when a writer hands off their work to a professional for the first time, it can be a little touchy. I always try to be very aware of the writer’s experience level in terms of, you know, have they ever used an editor before? Have they used beta readers? Or have they been involved in critique groups? Because that will give me indications of how attuned they are to their own writing process, to what their strengths and weaknesses are, and how skilled they may be or not at accepting feedback. 

As an editor, I feel like the most beneficial thing that I can do is to ask quality questions, which is something we also talked about in terms of the critique group. The editor, of course, will kind of hopefully take you to a different level in doing that. 

So let’s talk a little bit about beta readers first. Because like I said, those are typically non-professional readers. These are maybe other writers who can provide you useful feedback and suggestions for your book before you send it off to a professional editor or submit it to an agent or publisher. It’s sort of a pre-publication read through. Now this is… beta readers aren’t any substitute for the editing or the proofreading process. They should be paired with. They should be paired with that process along with your own self-editing process, like we talked about in the last episode. 

So I do not advise asking your parents or your siblings or, you know, an aunt, or in some cases, even a closest friend, to be a beta reader, because what you’re looking for is really something from both a reader and a writer perspective. Some people will use non-writers in their beta group. And I think that that can be a benefit when you know that you’re strictly looking for reader perspective. If, however, you are looking to improve your craft, using beta readers who are also writers is a good avenue to take. And so knowing what your expectations are and what you’re looking for from the beta readers that you provide your manuscript to, and also guiding them somewhat. If you turn your manuscript over to a beta reader, and you just say, “Give me feedback,” or “Tell me what you think,” you’re not gonna get anything that you can act on. And so…¶ 

KimBoo
8:23
You may get something you wish you never saw.¶

Gina
8:28
Exactly. So being able to give them maybe a set of questions. If you know what your strengths and weaknesses are, or if you have some very specific concerns about that project, then you can tune in on some questions that you can ask them that will give you something substantive that you can really act upon when you’re doing your revisions after you get back your feedback from your beta readers. 

There’s a couple of qualities that I think it’s helpful to look for in finding beta readers:, someone who is interested in your genre. They may not necessarily write in your genre, but at least have some sort of an interest in it. You don’t want to ask somebody who hates history to read your historical fiction. That’s not gonna serve you. Somebody who, somebody that you feel like can be open and honest with you in a respectful manner, somebody who can be forthright in delivering that feedback to you. Because again, if you just get back, “Oh, I really like that scene,” or, you know, “I really liked that character,” that’s not going to give you anything of substance to act upon. 

You also want to make sure that that person is reliable because you don’t want to hand off that manuscript and then have them keep it for two or three or four months. You want to be able to give them a timeframe within which to deliver that feedback to you and be certain that they’re going to live up to that request from you. Sometimes it’s a good idea if you know that you want to have feedback from at least five people, ask 10, because there are going to be people who are not going to be able to follow through. You know, life comes up. Even if they do tend to be reliable and say that they can meet your expectation, things happen. And there are going to be some people that aren’t going to be able to follow through with that. 

Beta readers can be found in sometimes your local writing group, or your regional writing group, if you’re lucky enough to have those in your area. You might, if you’re on social media, active on social media, then you might be able to request some of your writing groups that you may be involved in, like on Facebook. You might be able to request beta groups there. As I said, asking for more people to participate than you really need is typically a good idea. But you want to be able to make some significant improvements to your manuscript after getting feedback from the beta readers. So just make sure that you’re getting people that you know, that you can rely on who are going to give you honest feedback.¶

KimBoo
11:03
Good points. Very good points.¶

Melody
11:06
Absolutely.¶

Gina
11:07
So what kinds of questions should you ask your beta reader? Obviously, it’s going to depend on your genre. It’s going to depend also on how well you know your strengths and weaknesses as a writer. If you know that you’re having certain challenges about making a character really three-dimensional and believable, then you want to ask about that character.¶

KimBoo
11:30
I’m gonna I’m gonna jump in there a little bit, because that is so what my beta readers are trained to do. Like, I will often, you know, like “She gasped,” and they’ll be like, “Well, okay. She gasped, but what was her emotions? What was she feeling?” 

And I have one beta reader who will literally just go through and like, “What are they feeling?” That’s her comment. It’s like, “Okay, what are they feeling?” Yeah, there’s like, 400 of those comments like, “What do they feel? What do they…?” because she knows, like I said, in the last episode, I’m a radio school writer. I like lots of dialogue, very little description. And so I’ll just write something and there’ll be no clear… there’ll be no insight into what the character is feeling even if it’s from their point of view. 

She knows my style. I’m comfortable with her. She knows that I take that kind of advice really well. But she also knows that that’s what my stories need, because I just skip that part. I’m like, “Yeah, it was a tree.” 

“Was it tall? Was it short? Was it was winter? Was it summer? What are you doing with the tree here?” 

I don’t… “It’s a tree.” Like, okay, get off my ass.

Gina
12:35
Something that I should have probably said earlier in this discussion about beta readers is that you never want to give your beta readers an early draft. You want your beta readers to see what you consider a finished manuscript. Because if you’re still in the development stage of that story, if you’ve still got plot threads that are unfinished, or characters that aren’t fully developed, then you are not going to be able to, again, to get that substantive feedback from your beta readers. So you want to make sure that you’re giving them as much of a finished draft as you possibly can.¶

KimBoo
13:11
I’m going to push back on you on that one, Gina. Sorry. 

Gina
Oh, okay.

KimBoo
I’m gonna push back on you with that one because I’m a pantser, and so I rarely have a finished story by the time I get to my beta readers, by the time I’m roping in my beta readers. And oftentimes, that’s because I’ve hit a wall with the story. And my beta readers know my genre, they know my writing style, they know what I’m looking for, and so they can come in, and I’m just like… I’m not asking them what happens next. But I’m like, “What are your expectations? What do you want to see with these characters? What’s going on?” 

And it’s different from an alpha reader, because they’re not just there to cheer me on and say the story is great and ask questions about what they want to see. And in that, I’m looking for critique; I’m looking for better readers who know the genre and understand the kind of characters I write. But many times I will give them stories that aren’t finished, because I need to get that feedback from them, that critique, that analysis from people who know the genre and who are writers to help me figure out what I did wrong to write myself in that corner. And then back up and finish it. 

So usually, I give… oftentimes, I give writers a story when I’m two-thirds of the way through, not really early stages. And then again when I’ve got a finished draft. So that’s just my experience with it honestly, but that’s because I’m a pantser so I think that makes a difference.¶

Gina
14:36
It does make a difference because I’m definitely not a pantser and I love that we have different perspectives.

Melody
What is the opposite of a pantser?

KimBoo
14:47
A planner, someone who does outlines, and like, oh, I don’t know, pieces of paper that have… are like index cards that have…

Melody
Storylines.¶

KimBoo
14:55
A storyline, and characters. Notes on the wall.¶

Melody
15:05
I’m a little bit between Gina and KimBoo. Because I see value in both of those. And this is, I think, for me, another good example about knowing yourself and what you want and what you need. And you can go outside both of those things, and present it too soon. Now KimBoo, it sounds like you have a following of people who know you, know your genre, and you can trust and rely on them. Yeah, to give you good, decent feedback. If you don’t know people, I would not recommend giving your work in early stages at all. I learned that lesson the hard way. 

KimBoo
Good coda. That’s true. Yeah. I agree with that.

Melody
On the other end of the scale, some of us who have perfectionistic tendencies… I don’t know…

KimBoo
15:59
Who shall remain unnamed.¶

Melody
16:01
Yeah. And we want it to be as perfect as possible before we hand it to our beta readers. And so there’s some value in that as well. But if you’ve been holding, holding for a long time, before you let anybody see it, you know, maybe think about what is that for you personally? What are any challenges? Because sometimes they’re really valuable. If you get stuck, like KimBoo was talking about, or if you want to make sure things are going in the direction you want. So that’s my feedback on beta readers. When to ask.¶

Gina
16:54
Yeah, I love that we’ve got these different perspectives and different experiences here because no two writers are alike, right? And so you one thing that I think all of us are in agreement with, in terms of what we want our listeners to get from this, is for them to discover their own process. And so I think it’s great that we do have some differences here in the way that we approach things so that our listeners can hear that it is not… being a writer is not a singular experience. It’s not going to be the same for everybody, and give them ideas about how they can approach things differently so that they can learn what their process is, and be able to live their fullest writing life. So I appreciate you all sharing our differences of opinion.¶

KimBoo
17:49
Well, again, it comes back to what Melody has been saying over. It’s like, you got to know yourself. You’ve got to have that self assessment. Because like, yeah, obviously, I know myself, that if I tried to wait until I finished with the story, it would never get to the beta readers because it would never get finished. Stuck in there somewhere.¶

Melody
18:07
And when I finally sent my book Soul of the Seasons to beta readers, I think I had 12 or 14 people that volunteered to read for me. It’s also important to understand your genre and the work you’ve done. Soul of the Seasons is, it’s dense with wisdom, ancient wisdom. It is not a casual read. I had over 100,000 words in the draft when I set it out to my beta readers. And out of that 12 or 14, I probably got three or four really good responses back. And understand that’s going to be part of the process. Don’t become brokenhearted if people midway say, “I can’t do this. This is a bigger commitment than I expected.” I had one person, when I specifically said I do not need proofreading, dropped it midstream and said, “Oh, you have too many commas. I just can’t even read it anymore.” I like, “Okay.”¶

KimBoo
19:21
All right. Okay. Although I have had a similar experience, I had one novel that I had a friend beta reading, and she’s a writer, and this was at the beta reading stage, and she sent it back to me and she was like, “Look, I love your writing. I love the setup. I hate the main character because I went through a similar thing and it’s emotionally triggering for me.” It’s like it wasn’t badly written. It wasn’t anything, but she could not finish the story because it was too psychologically upsetting for her to read about that character’s journey. She couldn’t do it. And so I was like, “Okay, yeah, that’s fine,” but you know, not quite as… too many commas. But, okay, all right, you know. But sometimes people just won’t be able to finish it for their own reasons. It has nothing to do with you.¶

Gina
20:06
It has absolutely nothing to do with you and your writing. And you know, if a beta reader does not follow through for whatever reason, that’s no reflection on your capability as a writer or the writing itself. 

I’ve had people ask whether the beta reader process works for nonfiction books. And, of course, Melody’s experience proves that, yes, it certainly is applicable to nonfiction as well. And I think that when you do have a nonfiction book that it’s helpful to include somebody who maybe has a knowledge of that topic. It’s also helpful if you have someone who maybe has a need for the process that is discussed in that nonfiction book, if it’s that type of book. Or maybe somebody who has even overcome whatever that book might be about. So getting people who have the different sets of experiences and perspectives, so that you can get their take on what you’ve put down on the page.¶

Melody
21:08
And I did circle back around, actually, after taking in what one of the, a couple of the early beta readers commented on. And one was—it stung a little bit—but she said, “You sound like you’re up on your soapbox a lot.” And when I went back through it, I could see how true that was, you know. I found a way to wedge in some of my personal grievances with the world in general into every chapter.¶

KimBoo
21:43
I don’t know what that’s about. What?¶

Melody
21:47
And, you know, so I went through and I scoured a bunch of them, because I don’t want to preach to people. I want them… to invite them into my work. And then when I took that into consideration, and you know, the revisions Gina recommended, because she was my editor, we created a great finished product, I believe. Cut out 100 pages. And even when I went back and had two other beta readers look it over again, one made of what I felt was a really valuable comment when she said, “You know, this other stuff is really interesting, but you really shine when you talk about the emotions and how they work in our lives and how we…” she was, “That is where you shine.” And so I trimmed another 100 pages out, because it’s, to me, it was fascinating information, but it wasn’t necessary in the book that I was creating. And as Gina kindly reminded me, don’t throw those away. Great seedlings, great seedlings for next, when you want to expand, because this information in Soul of the Seasons is like endless and applicable to everyone, I believe. Anyway. So that was my sort of two-tiered experience with beta readers, and they were both valuable.¶

Gina
23:20
So something that I have seen happen is that authors will go through this process of gathering beta readers and getting their feedback, and then they will completely dismiss everything that they receive. Now, that sounds like a horrible thing, but honestly, if you are fully tuned into the intentions of your book, then maybe that was appropriate. You don’t have to incorporate every bit of feedback that you get. And that’s a mistake that I see a lot of newer writers make, is that they think just because somebody says something that they maybe didn’t get this or would, you know, maybe like to see this done a little bit differently, that doesn’t mean that you have to follow that suggestion, or that piece of feedback to the T if it doesn’t match the intentions for what you met the book to accomplish. So what you do with the feedback and the end is completely up to you. 

It isn’t necessary to heed every suggestion, but do be respectful of your beta readers. If you engage in this process. Whether you act on every single comment and suggestion and insight that you get, be sure that you honor and acknowledge the time and the energy that these individuals have gifted to you as your beta readers.

Melody
24:41
Absolutely.¶

KimBoo
24:42
Yeah, and I’m not too sure about the nonfiction or the literature, but I do know in the genre fiction area, if you have people who are beta readers, usually they’re going to get a free copy of the finished product. 

Melody
Absolutely. I did do that.

KimBoo
Once it is published, and I’ll send people in whatever format they want, they get they get a free copy of it.¶

Melody
25:03
Absolutely. And that was such a good point, Gina. Because it’s about knowing your work, and knowing your vision for your work, because one of the first round of beta readers—we talked about this, and if you want to go back and listen to the podcast on Spring—but the core emotion in Spring is anger. And so I have a whole chapter about anger and how we interact, what is our relationship with anger, and her feedback was, “You really need to tone that down or eliminate that because anger is a bad thing. And you do not want to be promoting people to be angry.” And I’d like, “Nope, this is pretty essential.” You know, I thanked her for her comments. And I have to tell you, anger is probably one of the most talked about subjects when I go out and talk to people.¶

KimBoo
26:00
Ah right. It’s funny because I got similar with my book Grieving Futures, which is a nonfiction memoir about my life after my parents died. And one of the early early drafts and this was years and years and years, before I even finished the book. But they said something similar about the chapter where I talk about my codependency with my mother who had a lot of mental illnesses. There’s a lot of anger in that chapter. She’s like, well, people don’t want to hear you be angry about someone who’s dead. And I’m like, Well, too bad. Because I’m angry. She’s dead. So that’s how we’re going. That’s how we’re rolling.¶

Melody
26:37
And again, it’s more reflection on the reader, and where they are with that material than it is here. So if you know your know your material, you know your content, then stick with what you know, in your gut.¶

Gina
26:50
And that whole idea of knowing what the intent of your work is, and being able to discern which we talked about in the last episode, being able to discern what feedback to take and what to let go of. You know, that’s been the focus of our last two episodes. And ladies, I think that even though we were going to go into a discussion of editing and the different kinds of editors, that right there is a whole nother episode. So I think you’re right, I think we have Yeah, we have probably given our readers enough to digest in this in this one episode. And I think that probably a another worksheet on beta readers will make available with this episode at our website around the writers table.com. And you can also listen to these episodes on your favorite platform. But be sure and go to our website to download the worksheets. We also had one in our last episode on appraising your own work, which is an important part of the of the revising and, and editing process as well.¶

Melody
27:55
Thank you, Gina. And thank you, I want to say thank you for the we’re going to include this in this episode, some questions to ask your beta readers because you presented me with a list of them. And they were invaluable in extracting what I needed for my beta readers. So listeners check that out.¶

KimBoo
28:14
Excellent. So next issue, issue. Look at me, I’m thinking like a writer, like the next issue this magazine? No, the next episode of this podcast is going to be episode 14. We are actually branching back or returning back into seasons of writing or seasons for writers and be talking about winter. And so melody I’m gonna turn you over to you to give our listeners a little bit of a sneak peek on what that episode is going to be about. We will eventually do an episode on editors working with editors how to do that. And of course, our listeners will be the first to know when we get that one in the can and get ready to roll that out. But next episode is about winter. So what’s that really going to be about melody?¶

Melody
29:01
I love that season of winter in fact, I just spent a couple of weeks up in snowy Wisconsin enjoying the cold and the snow up my god¶

KimBoo
29:09
that was a lot of snow she posted photographs on on Facebook, it was like Oh, I love a snowstorm and I’m like wow, that looks awful. Cold. I’m gonna stay here in Florida right now.¶

Melody
29:22
Yeah, well see, I get to come back to Florida. After stay in it told me but I in a natural world. The season of winter is a time of rest. Quiet going within. You know, our it’s not the high, high energy productivity. Gotta get everything done phase it’s about slowing down, going. It’s where our creativity lies. It’s where our curiosity lies. It’s about death and when to give things a good death and let them Go. So we’re gonna talk about how that connects with the writing process. Because we as a culture are not great at rest, and being quiet. Yours Truly included. So I’m going to be excited to talk about this because I’m liking winter more and more with each passing year, which is weird, but I’m over¶

Gina
30:20
here raising my hand about not knowing how to rest.¶

KimBoo
30:28
I would add into that not knowing how to grieve like a lot of a lot of writers have, like the postpartum after your books done and published and out. Yeah, so that’s, that’s an important part of it, too. Definitely.¶

Gina
30:39
Yes, we will. Yeah, we will definitely talk more about that. So thank you, listeners for being here. We’ve enjoyed being with you. Thank you for indulging us in this conversation about critiques and all things writing. Hope you’ll join us for the next episode. All right.¶

Melody
30:57
Bye.¶

Dave
31:02
Thanks for joining us around the writer’s table. Please feel free to suggest a topic or a guest by emailing info@aroundthewriterstable.com. Music provided with gracious permission by Langtry. A link to their music is on our homepage at AroundTheWritersTable.com. Everyone here around the writer’s table wishes you joy in your writing and everyday grace in your living. Take care, until next time.

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