On this episode, Melody, Gina, and KimBoo discuss the importance of editing in writing. Whether you’re a professional writer or a hobbyist, working with an editor can help elevate your work to the next level. Gina breaks down the four different stages of editing – developmental editing, content editing, line editing, and copy editing – and explain what each one entails. We also give tips on how to clarify what kind of editing services an editor provides before hiring them, and why proofreading is crucial for any polished final product. KimBoo explains why traditional publishers may not be providing the same level of editing services as before, and Melody talks about her long journey through different editors until finally working with Gina to produce her book, Soul of the Seasons.

Ep.16: Three Cs (Critique, Compassion, Craft) Part 3: EDITING

Dave Hogan, Gina’s Pop
0:02
Welcome to Around the Writer’s Table, a podcast focusing on the crossroads of creativity, craft, and conscious living for writers of all ages and backgrounds. Your hosts are Gina, Melody, and KimBoo, three close friends and women of a certain age, who bring to the table their eclectic backgrounds and unique perspectives on the trials, tribulations, and the joys of writing. So pull up a chair and get comfortable here around the writer’s table.

Melody, A Scout
0:42
Hello, and welcome back to Around the Writer’s Table. We’re going to be talking today about the three C’s: critique, compassion, craft . . . and editing. Dun dun dun.

KimBoo York
1:01
What a lead in.

Melody
1:04
Editing, I like to include that in the writing process as part of the Spring season, because Spring is all about new ideas popping. It’s also about structure and organization and planning, and editing is all about that. We have a lot of ground to cover because this is a really fascinating and really critical subject to talk about for writers. And we’re going to talk about our personal experiences and also professional experiences. So welcome, and I am Melody, A Scout, and I help my clients find their sense of home by restoring balance and harmony to their lives through  plant spirit medicine and my book Soul of the Seasons, and I’d like to welcome my co-host KimBoo.

KimBoo
2:05
Hey, I am KimBoo York. I write under several pen names as a professional romance author, and I’m also a former project manager. I help writers and solopreneurs find time, mojo, and motivation to create their visions.

Melody
Gina.

Gina Hogan Edwards
2:22
Hello, everybody. It’s great to be here. I’m happy to have this conversation today from a lot of different perspectives. I am a creativity coach, a retreat leader, and I am passionate about supporting women in finding the power of their voices. So let’s talk editing.

KimBoo
2:44
Hold on, y’all. Hold on. First, we got to do a little recap here in case there might be people who are not devoted listeners, and maybe don’t know what we’re talking about when we talk about the three C’s: critique, compassion, and craft. We actually had started this series on critique, compassion and craft, which we’re calling the three C’s, back in episodes 12 and 13, and what we’ve done, why I think these episodes would be really important for anybody listening to go back and listen to, is we broke down the critique and editing process into general stages. 

In episode 12, we talked about the really initial stage where you’re working maybe with alpha readers. If you don’t know what I’m talking about, that’s definitely the episode to go listen to. And finding your own mindset in approaching critique and editing and some questions to ask yourself: Is the story ready for that level of critique and analysis? Are you ready for that level of critique and analysis? 

In Episode 13, we continued the discussion, talking more about critiquing, perhaps, expanding the circle a little bit. Not just your alpha readers and you, but also some beta readers, maybe early stage professional editors, like story editors who can help you with story structure and things like that. So this episode, as we get into it, is building on those previous episodes, where we’ve gone through the stages of expanding the circle out from yourself then to beta readers and preliminary editors, which is what this episode is going to be all about. And editing as a process and as something that we as authors have a love-hate relationship, I think. I think it’s safe to say. 

So what I’m going to do now though, is hand it over to the expert editor in our midst, and that is Gina, who has edited many, many professionally published authors, and has worked with authors at many different stages and levels of editing. And so if there’s one person among us, who is primed and ready to give us an overview of what we mean when we say editing and why it’s important, it’s going to be genius. So I’m gonna let you handle that one.

Gina
5:03
Yeah, ha. So y’all have to rein me in because this is a topic that I can go on and on and on about. And I know that we’re trying to keep these podcasts to about a half an hour. So, all right, here we go. So there’s so many things that we can talk about, but what I want to be sure that we cover in this episode is some clarification about the different types of editing, because I think that it’s important for readers, I mean, for writers to understand what they’re getting when they approach an editor and also what they need, so that when they are looking at hiring an editor, they can ask the right questions, and that they can make sure that everything that that editor and the writer are doing together is in service to the story. 

So before we really dive into these definitions, KimBoo, I want to chat with you a little bit about the value of editors, and specifically in terms of this growing interest and experimentation that’s going on right now with artificial intelligence, AI. So I’m gonna hand it off to you for a moment just to kind of speak to that and address it in terms of the value of editors.

KimBoo
6:20
Sure, and, you know, that’s dangerous, because whereas you could go on and on about editing, I, you know, people who know me know I’m a tech junkie, I’m a futurist, and I love technology. And AI is amazing. As an author, and as a tech person, I’m really loving to see what’s happening. But what we are seeing is that a lot of people are under the assumption that they can just use AI tools as a replacement for a human editor. Now, I am not one of those people. As much as I really love AI and what it can contribute to the writing process and the editing process, I still feel that relationship, manual one-on-one relationship with an editor whom you trust, which I’m sure Gina will get into that in a little bit, is critically important. 

So when we talk about AI, we’re not necessarily talking about those really high-level, you know, open AI ChatGPT3 things you may have heard. Those are important, but AI is being used in things like Grammarly and ProWritingAid, and almost any writing software that you’ve got. It’s coming into Microsoft Word now, the Microsoft Office Suite. So yes, those tools are fantastic for early pass-throughs, catching grammar mistakes, catching, even these days, they can catch it when you change tense in the middle of a, you know, from past to present tense or something like that, which I tend to sometimes get myself into a bad situation there. So these tools are very, very helpful. But as we talk about editing, let’s keep in mind, these are tools. These are things you can use to hone and sharpen your writing. But they are just tools, They aren’t replacement for humans, to the extent of a human editor can really get to know your story and understand what your goals are. So that’s the important thing to take forward, as this whole new AI world opens up for authors. And I’m sure we’ll have an episode about that down the road, if I have anything to say about it. But that’s what I want to stress for listeners in regards to editing.

Gina
8:23
Thank you, KimBoo Yes, the AI is definitely something that we’re gonna have to talk about a lot more. It’s being talked about by writers everywhere, and it’s, it can be a very polarizing topic. And there’s an education process for all of us in that regard, so I’m looking forward to those conversations. 

So why should you hire an editor? Naturally, no matter why you are writing, you know, whether writing is your career, whether you’re publishing as a hobby, or if you just have a single passion project that you want to get out there, you want it to be the best that it can be. If you’re going the traditional route, you might ask, you know, won’t my agent or my publisher do that? A lot of publishers are not offering the editing services and support to writers that they used to. And what is happening is shifting a lot of that responsibility onto the agents. So a lot of agents are also editors. And your chances of getting picked up by an agent will increase if your book is more polished, because that means they will have less work that they have to do. So if you’re going the traditional route, keep those things in mind. You’ve got one chance to really show yourself and your work in the best light to an agent or a publisher or a reader. You know, if you’re, if you’re publishing, if you’re an independent publisher, you want your work to be the best that it can be before you put the manuscript in anybody’s hands like that as a finished product. 

Okay, so the types of editing. I want to clarify upfront here that the language and the definitions around the different stages of editing can be really confusing for a writer. Different editors will use different terms for the same thing. And so I want it to be clear that these are four terms that I use to define them, and if you can get your mind around these, then it will give you some terminology and some sort of structure for talking with a potential editor that you might hire about what their services are. Because you want to be very clear before you hire anybody, what kind of editing that they do. You don’t want that mismatch from the very beginning, or you’re gonna get yourself into trouble. 

KimBoo
10:43
We were talking about that when we started recording, and that’s like, yeah.

Gina
10:48
Yeah, so the, what I call like kind of the sort of highest level or stage one of editing is the developmental editing. That’s when an author works with an editor while the manuscript is still being written. Oftentimes, this is a chapter-by-chapter or a scene-by-scene process where you swap the pieces of the manuscript back and forth in order to get a fully completed draft. And usually working with a developmental editor, the editor would provide, like one full work-through of the manuscript for you to get that completed. If you’re a nonfiction writer, that process can really help you flesh out an idea or a concept. If you’re a fiction writer, the developmental editor is going to be focused on aspects of storytelling, plot, character development. There’s a lot of decision making in this process about structure and organization. And there’s a big focus on consistency and clarity. 

And not every writer needs a developmental editor. You may be really good at story structure, or you may have such a solid story idea in your head, that that may not be something that you need. But know that developmental editing is one stage that you can explore.

Ssort of the next level in the process or the flow is content editing. So where developmental editing is about decision-making and creating a draft, content editing is looking at a completed draft. So you would hand off your manuscript after that draft is complete and take a look at how well you’ve been able to execute that on your own. Like developmental editing, content editing for fiction usually focuses on the storytelling aspects. But rather than the editor supporting the writer during the development of those, the editor is looking at and providing you feedback on how well you did them on your own. So it’s an evaluation of the completed manuscript, and whether it’s staying true to your original vision and your intention. And it’s important that you have a conversation with your potential editor about that upfront before they start working on it so that they’re clear about your intention. So the editor is going to want from you a completed manuscript. Hopefully, you’ve already revised it and gone through it multiple times yourself, maybe use some beta readers for it. Some editors will call this structural or substantive editing. 

This is where it can get confusing, because some editors will call structural and substantive editing the equivalent of developmental. So be aware of those terms and just ask them what is it they’re doing? What do they expect from you? And what is the outcome going to be so that you can be clear whether you’re getting developmental or content editing. 

All right. So after the developmental and content levels in the process flow are line and copy editing. And I’m discussing these two together even though they have some differences because there are overlaps. But there are a few distinct differences. So despite what they’re called, line editing is a . . . think of it as a paragraph-level edit, where copy editing is more line-by-line and word-by-word. So that’s where the confusion and the terminology can come in.

KimBoo
14:32
See, I’ve been doing this for years, and I never knew that that was the difference between them. Like, that’s, that’s news to me, I am enlightened, all of a sudden.

Gina
14:42
And a lot of people use these terms interchangeably. So again, it’s good for you to be clear in your own head when you’re approaching an editor, knowing that line editing is going to, they will take a look at transitions between your scenes and your chapters. They’ll look at shifts in tone or point of view. Copy editing is going to focus more on continuity and consistency and things like spelling, capitalization, hyphenation, numerals, abbreviations, if you use acronyms if you’re writing nonfiction, your character and your place names. 

So the way that I like to think of it is line editing focuses on language, story, flow, and meaning. Whereas copy editing focuses more on the technical aspects of the writing. 

Where these two can overlap and where the distinction between them gets lost, there are some some tasks that are similar, but they’re just done at sort of a different level. So let me give you a couple of examples. One is repetition. So a line editor might tell you, “Hey, you already told me once about that character’s tendencies to be shy in a previous paragraph, and you use nearly the same wording in both places.” Okay. Whereas a copy editor looking at repetition would point out to you that you’ve used the word “again” five times in 10 lines. You see the difference? See the distinction there? 

KimBoo
Yeah, yeah. 

Gina
All right. So another example would be around structure. A line editor is going to point out to you if a paragraph or a short scene unfolds in a disjointed way that’s going to confuse your reader and that you need to organize that. A copy editor looking at structure might give you alternative wording for a confusing sentence to make it more clear or to have better impact. So the boundaries aren’t easy to distinguish, sometimes. 

A lot of editors who offer line editing, also do copy editing. Be aware that if you’re using somebody for a copy editing once, and then a different person the next time, that you might get different levels of service. So just be sure that you understand what those editors do and what you’re getting. 

I would like to add too that if a line editor or a copy editor during their work with you recognizes the revisions that they need to make, the suggestions that they’re diving into, go beyond the scope of their expertise, if there are revisions that are needed at that sort of content level of editing, then if you’ve hired a good editor, they’re going to identify that for you, point that out to the author and make a recommendation to a content editor. Okay? 

So just be aware that again, line editors, copy editors sometimes are one and the same. If your story, if you have worked hard on your story, and you’ve done revisions, and yet that line editor sees that there may be still some major story issues to deal with, then they might refer you off to a content editor. 

Lastly, I want to touch on proofreading, even though most editors don’t consider proofreading to be a stage of editing. It’s often confused with copy editing. But proofreading is strictly a check of errors. So typos, mistakes in punctuation and spelling. Now, it’s certainly a critical stage, and it’s something that needs to happen before it goes to the final stage of publication. But it is not, in some circles, technically considered to be editing. 

Proofreading can occur at two different stages. Either at one or the other, or both. It can be done prior to the layout, again, checking for spelling, typos and punctuation. It can be at the pre-publication proof. All right, so it’s already been laid out. There might be an advanced reader’s copy or what’s called a galley proof. And a lot of times the comparison will be done of the copy edited and the proofread manuscript to make sure that the layout did not cause any weirdnesses, like words to break in strange places, you know, spacing in between paragraphs getting messed up, broken ellipses, things like that. So proofreading can actually be done at two different stages: before it goes to layout and after it’s already been laid out and you have a galley proof. 

A proofreader may also check the ebook layout because a lot times that transition into the technology can cause some changes. And there are oftentimes differences in devices, and so the proofreader may look at it on different devices to see how the manuscript looks in those different circumstances. 

All right, ladies, so I have sort of covered for you the stages of editing. And I want to do a little bit of a discussion here about what role editing has played in your writing process. What has your personal experience been either with an editor or with the editing process? Melody, you want to tackle that first? 

Melody
20:41
Sure. So during the writing of Soul of the Seasons, which was a very labor intensive and demanding process for me, I was very excited about the material. But I had a definite structure I had to adhere to, in time, what I was writing to five element medicine. When I first started out, I had gotten maybe about two-thirds of the first draft done, I was unemployed at the time, and I had some wonderful people that wanted to support me. One person said, “How can I support you,” and I said I needed an editor, and he had been doing some editing for someone else. And he offered his services. And I was really grateful and thrilled. However, his style—and I’m not sure where it would fall into any of your categories, Gina—but what he offered was some broad philosophical questions without much guidance or structure. It’s like he kind of was trying to get me to figure it out. Well, I am grammatically challenged, and I did not have a lot of experience with editing or editors, at all. Zero. So this direction did not help me, actually, a lot. And we had a personal falling out. So that just kind of ended that relationship there. 

My next experience was someone, another friend who generously offered to edit for me, but what they really were was a proofreader. And they did a great job at that. But I was still in the revision process. So finally, I said, “You know, there’s really no need for you to do this, because I’m continually revising. So your work is, you know, it doesn’t make much sense to do it now.”

Gina
22:55
I’m sorry to interrupt you, but I want the readers, I want the listeners to hear that point very clearly. Proofreading shouldn’t be done until the very end. Otherwise, you’re gonna double, triple your work, your workload.

Melody
23:14
Absolutely, because I mean I still had hundreds of pages of content I needed to trim out, you know, and what they were proofreading might not even, never ended up. So it was kind of a wasted effort for the person. And again, I was really grateful for the offer. But if I was paying for that, I would have been paying and paying and paying, you know, as I did the revisions,

Gina
23:41
Every single time the writer touches the manuscript is another opportunity for an error to get introduced. And so again, proofreading last thing. Okay, I’m gonna shut up now.

Melody
23:54
Good point. So, about this time, I also, my sister Rosemary, who was my angel during this period of time, said, “What do you need most to help you finish the book.” She believed in what I was writing and she wanted to be supportive. I said, “I really need an editor. I feel like I’ve gotten a lot of content down, but I need to really focus and hone so I’m not going back and forth with my revisions as well, where I go in and revise it and then I go in and revise it again. And then I go revise it again, back to the way it was the first time.” Like that’s a little craziness right there and spinning my wheels. And I had met Gina probably a couple months, few months earlier at a women’s group, and I really liked her. And I said I know someone who does this. Let me talk to her. I will, really, it was divine guidance that brought Gina and I together because we were a very good match. Like, she got me. She got my work. And she had this wonderful ability, she truly understands the writing process, which is really important. As someone who gets very emotionally invested in their work and has my favorites, and you know, I can get into the weeds easily and not see…

KimBoo
25:36
I have no idea what that’s about. Like never. I don’t get it at all. Emotionally invested? What?

Melody
25:44
Thank God, you’ve graduated from that.

KimBoo
25:47
Oh, yeah, sure. Yeah. Right. Yeah.

Melody
25:50
So Gina gave me an estimate on doing story, line, and copy editing. She said she doesn’t do proofreading. And I said, fine. And I said, let’s go for it. Right off the bat, even though I had not finished even my first draft, I had, again, about maybe two-thirds of it done. She looked at a chapter or two and pointed out some things and asked me some well-placed questions that made me really think about how I was delivering the information. And, also, she helped with accountability. “When do you expect to have the first draft done, the revision process.” And, you know, she wasn’t a huge, hard taskmaster, but she definitely helped me focus. And I am a real people pleaser, so I wanted to honor my commitment to her. So I worked really hard to honor that.

Gina
27:00
You mentioned, Melody, that we did story, line, and copy editing. And I want the listeners to understand that those stages of editing cannot all be done in a single pass. So that’s another good question for the writer to ask a potential editor is how many times you’re going to go through this manuscript with me. So if they’re offering you several different levels of editing, you know, the story-level editing has got to come first, and then you can attack the line and copy editing. And so we did multiple passes through Melody’s manuscript, multiple passes.

Melody
27:35
Yes,and they were all, I felt, really critical into developing the final manuscript that I’m very proud of in the book that I now offer. And I’m very proud of it. 

Gina
Me, too!

Melody
And it was… You should be.

KimBoo
27:54
It is an awesome, awesome book. Yeah.

Melody
27:57
Thank you, guys.

KimBoo
27:58
We’ll have a link to it in the show notes for this episode for anyone who might be interested, because it’s worth it. Yeah. Yeah.

Gina
28:04
So, KimBoo, tell us a little bit about your experiences with editors and editing. You know, you’ve done some work with professional publishers.

KimBoo
28:16
Yeah, yeah. Ya know, it all started with my mother as most stories do. She was actually my first editor. I was a storyteller very young. My mother was a literature nerd. So she was pretty determined that if her daughter was going to write, she was going to write properly. So I grew up with red marks all over my typewritten pages. So editing wasn’t exactly a new experience for me when I got into writing as a professional author. 

My experiences kind of, you know, are wide and varied. I was professionally published with a publishing house for a few years. That relationship soured eventually, and I’m now self published. So editing in those two different environments are very different. When you’re working with a publisher—and I think Gina kind of touched on this a little bit earlier—they want a manuscript, kind of like what she was saying about an agent, they want a manuscript that’s very clean walking through the door. So if you are looking to be published traditionally with a publishing house, you’re still going to have to deal with editing and editors at some level, not just you know, Grammarly, or ProWritingAid, but also with probably a story or developmental editor to help you get the story to the point where it can be seen by the editors that are in-house. So the editors I worked with in the publishing house were very much along the line of line and copy editors. I did once ask for some story development editing, and it was terrible. So don’t rely on you know, finding an agent and getting a publisher to help you develop your story. That, I think, was my lesson. The world has changed a lot, and it’s not likely you’re going to be working with a developmental editor when you’re at a publishing house unless the circumstances are very exceptional. Not that it never happens, but certainly with the smaller publishing houses, it’s very unlikely. So I worked with copy and line editors. They’re very thorough. Usually, it went through actually two to three different line and copy editors. So there would be one pass, I would make corrections, it would go back again to a different line and copy editor. And I’m, like Gina, kind of merging those two because that’s essentially what they were doing. And then I would make corrections or make changes or argue with them. And then we’d go back to a final one, and only when it was typeset, and ready to be sent to the printers or sent to the digital formatters was the proofreading done. So I never got the proofreading until the very final moment. 

As an independent author, I am responsible for finding and editing, finding editors for myself. And that can be a challenge. I think, listening, if you’re new to this, definitely go back in this podcast and re-listen to Gina’s section where she describes the different editing stages and how they are all part of the process, because you do need to ask those questions. When I look for an editor now I’m rarely looking for a developmental or story editor. I’m usually looking for a line and copy editor, usually line editor, paragraph-level type of corrections. And I expect them to do one pass through. And I know this. I know this. I know that I’m going to hire somebody to make one pass through the novel and give it back to me. I might, depending on how I feel about it, go for a second pass. But I know that will be extra money. I’m not paying them to do it until it’s perfect, which I think a lot of newbie authors or inexperienced authors think that you hire an editor and they work with you one-on-one until it’s perfect. They can… Gina did that with Melody, right? Like, you guys came to an agreement of what that would entail. But understand that that’s part of the agreement that you’re coming to. So when I go looking for editors nowadays, I’m very clear about, this is going to be line and copy editing I need. These are the things I’m particularly looking for, for instance, repeated phrases. I’m really notorious about that. Things like plot holes, like changing a character’s name, not plot holes, but like the character’s name changes halfway through the book, things like that. And that I expect them to do one pass through. So that’s how I approach it nowadays, as a professionally independently published author.

Gina
32:47
One of the things that you mentioned, KimBoo, was in working with the publishing houses’ editors, you said that you would make your revisions and do the back-and-forth and/or argue with them. And so I want to emphasize that the editor, a good editor, asks you lots of questions and will make suggestions. And there are certain things like grammar, spelling, and punctuation that have definite rights and wrongs. But when it comes to your story, it’s yours. And just because an editor suggests something, if it doesn’t feel right for your story, it doesn’t mean you have to do it.

Melody
33:30
Absolutely. And I wanted to add along with that is, I had that misconception too, that, well, if it’s broken, an editor’s just gonna fix it. And, but Gina was good at showing me how it might be broken and let me sort out how I was gonna fix it. Because in this process, to be honest with you, I really developed and found my voice in my writing during this process. And it was in there somewhere, but it was buried under metaphors and metaphors about metaphors. And, you know, a lot of soapbox, preaching. You know, the recommendations helped me develop an eye on how to clean up my own work, which was really valuable, because I’m not certain I would have been happy with someone who had done that process for me. And then we would be more back-and-forth on it.

Gina
34:31
That takes us too, full circle, back to the value of an editor because really, a good editor is going to help you become a better writer in the long-term to help you find that voice. Yeah. 

So I think we need to wrap that up, this topic up for now. Yes, I know we’re gonna have, I’m gonna put an info sheet as a download, along with the podcast recording on our website, that is going to define those stages or the flow of editing as I defined it earlier in the episode. But as we’re talking, I’ve also decided I’m going to include a tips sheet. And that’s going to cover things that we couldn’t talk about here. Like, how much would an editor cost? When do I need to look for an editor? Things like that, and maybe some critical questions to ask someone that you’re considering to hire as an editor. So I’m going to put together a tip sheet too, that will go on our website, which is AroundTheWritersTable.com. Melody, would you like to share with us what we’re going to talk about in our next episode?

Melody
35:48
Yes, we’re going to do a Spring Redux. And if you check back in our podcasts to Episode 4, I believe it was, was one of our very first podcasts, about the season of Spring in the writing process. And that’ll give you a lot of great background about the story of Spring, where it’s new ideas come into fruition, there’s lots of things popping off. This is often the first-draft stage. And all sorts of fun, exciting things are happening during this season. We’re going to talk a little bit in our next podcast about, specifically about planning, and how that is important and works for us, and maybe sometimes against us, in our writing process. So I’m excited to be talking about that.

Gina
36:42
Thank you, Melody. Again, listeners, do visit our website AroundTheWritersTable.com. To get the info sheet and the tip sheet on editing. Leave us a comment. Give us a review. You can listen to our podcast on all of the major platforms, and Spotify, Apple podcasts, wherever you listen. But be sure and give us a review so that we can keep doing this, keep coming to you on a regular basis. And that’s all for today. Thank you, ladies. Great discussion. Enjoyed it. Thanks for your input. And we’ll see you next time.

KimBoo
37:17
See ya. All right, next time.

Melody
Bye.

Dave
30:01
Thanks for joining us around the writer’s table. Please feel free to suggest a topic or a guest by emailing info@aroundthewriterstable.com. Music provided with gracious permission by Langtry. A link to their music is on our homepage at AroundTheWritersTable.com. Everyone here around the writer’s table wishes you joy in your writing and everyday grace in your living. Take care, until next time.

Copyright / Terms & Conditions

Around the Writer's Table and its co-hosts, Gina Hogan Edwards, Melody, A Scout, and Kimboo York own the copyright to all content and transcripts of the Around the Writer's Table podcast, with all rights reserved, including right of publicity. ​​You ​are welcome to share an excerpt from the episode transcript (up to 500 words) in media articles​, such as ​​The New York Times, ​Miami Herald, etc.; in a non-commercial article or blog post (e.g., ​​Medium); and/or on a personal social media account for non-commercial purposes, provided you include proper attribution and link back to the podcast URL. No one is authorized to use the Around the Writer's Table logo, or any portion of the transcripts or other content in and of the podcast to promote themselves.